You pointed out some real problems when you mentioned the superficiality of many churches, and the immaturity of many Christians. I agree that “Most Christians fall into the spectrum of faith at the lower end – the colder, maybe near temperate zone where they find comfort.”
I also agree that a big part of the problem is “Failing to fully recognize our ongoing personal, individual depravity.” I would like to make a few comments about that – not to disagree with what you said, but to elaborate on it.
Everyone, no matter what their religious belief or non-belief, even atheists and secularists and opponents of religion, know that they have done things that are wrong, even bad. We have all said things we shouldn’t have said, done things we shouldn’t have done, and we all have a conscience that makes us feel guilty or remorseful for various things in our lives (someone who has no conscience at all can be called a sociopath or a psychopath, I believe).
So the problem with much Christianity is, that many people look to Christ for forgiveness for their sins on that level of merely human psychological guilt – “I am sorry I did this, I shouldn’t have done that” – while at the same time they feel deep down that they are basically good people after all. I had this attitude myself for years (and needless to say my Christian life was full of problems – resentments, fears, doubt, anxiety, disobedience and sin).
They have not been completely convicted of their utter condemnation before the holiness of God, and hence they still retain a lot of self will and self confidence. Thus they can never enter into the deeper things of faith, unless they are truly convicted in a manner that only the Holy Spirit can do. Short of that divine conviction, pride and self remain on the throne, above all the doctrines and religious words and activities.
“This is why Christ said, “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of God” – and to be poor in spirit does not mean feeling “I am stupid, I am a failure, no one likes me.” It means poverty of spirit relative to the infinite perfections of God, without which there can be no progress in the Christian life - and only the Spirit of Christ can give this.
Another problem is confusing “faith” with “assent to doctrine.” Some people believe that if they agree to the basic doctrines they are now home free. However, the Bible says “The just shall live by faith.” Faith is a gift of God, but once that gift has been received there must be a new creature, as you pointed out.
There is also a question about what “salvation” means. Some people think that salvation is something that kicks in on the day of judgment. You do your best in this life and then if you have believed in Christ he will intercede for you on the day of judgment, your sins will be forgiven, and God will accept you. But “salvation from sin” is to be in this life also, so we are set free from the power of sin in our hearts and minds, so that while we still err and are vexed by sin, sin does not rule over us.
As you rightly said of many Christians,
“They never exercise their faith and willingly fall into the trap of the world; falling in love with it to the exclusion of taking up their cross and denying their own lives. Are these folks saved? Only God knows the condition of their hearts, but from my own perspective, most aren’t saved – they may have spoken the words and stood in front of a church and continue to profess Christ, but there’s no real evidence that they have. As Jesus said, you will know a tree by its fruit. If their fruit isn’t spiritually alive and instead quite dead, then they’re only fooling themselves."
Amen, and amen. Strange as it may seem to you - I needed this really bad today. One of the more excruciating aspects of the Christian walk is acknowledging failure, accepting your responsibility for it - then going through the entire spectrum of feeling quite useless, to hopeless to broken. It is there that Christians meet their savior who not only forgives them, but picks them back up again even when we don't _want_ to because we're afraid of failing ...again.
And therein lies the power of the Holy Spirit - to minister directly to you through others, reminding you that it's not your strength, but through His.
Right, and one thing that has helped me in that area (from dealing with an unsaved family member) is this: I realized that I could be the best Christian in the world - wise, kind, good, loving, sincere upright and this would not make him believe. Or, I could be the worst Christian, a lying phony hypocrite, and God could still speak to him and open his heart, so he could recognize me as a fraud and still believe.
This does not mean we have no obligation. I feel a strong obligation to have some kind of witness - but his eternal destiny is not in my hands and not on my shoulders.
It's a good subject for discussion. I'll state this much -- what we understand as predestination does not convey puppeteering. Because God is outside of the sandbox of his creation, time to Him is meaningless. He has already witnessed our decisions, already worked any and all problems, catastrophes and blunders for our good. It's a hard concept to grasp sometimes, but our free agency is a part of God's total sovereignty.
Starting with your first response, which I may have answered too quickly, it does not seem strange that a comment should happen to come at the right time. This has happened to me before, something has come to me by way of rebuke or correction or encouragement when I needed it. As you said, God can minister to us through others, and through circumstances as well.
When it comes to feelings of failure and uselessness, Moses and Joshua and David had their troubled moments. This passage from Lamentations describes that but ends on a note of victory:
"[God] hath filled me with bitterness, he hath made me drunken with wormwood.
"He hath also broken my teeth with gravel stones, he hath covered me with ashes.
"And thou hast removed my soul far off from peace: I forgat prosperity.
"And I said, My strength and my hope is perished from the LORD:
"Remembering mine affliction and my misery, the wormwood and the gall.
"My soul hath them still in remembrance, and is humbled in me.
"This I recall to my mind, therefore have I hope.
"It is of the LORD'S mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.
"They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness.
"The LORD is my portion, saith my soul; therefore will I hope in him.
"The LORD is good unto them that wait for him, to the soul that seeketh him."
And God apportions those things as we need them, encouragement or correction, refreshment and rebuke, as you know without my telling you.
About predestination, Christ said “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him.” There must be I believe a divine initiative, and there are other Scriptures which attest to this.
However, as you said, in some way our feelings and wills are involved. God does not deal with us as stones or blocks of wood, or as if we were puppets, as you said. He deals with us as people and calls to our heart and minds and wills and awakens us on our deepest levels.
Someone who does not believe in God at all will find it absurd or ridiculous to believe that the supreme power of the universe could take any personal, individual interest in us, his little creatures, yet God knows all of our trials and cares, impossible though that may seem to the world.
Thank you for your thoughtful replies, Joe. Indeed, without divine intervention, we'd be hopelessly condemned. It comes to mind that the nature of that divine intervention is akin to a wandering soul, who having stumbled an unspecified time in a cold and hostile wilderness, has to them revealed a light on a hill. A light that flickers brightly in the howling dark chill of their long night. Yet while seeing it, perceiving it and making observation, they can choose even then to embrace the night or to be drawn to the light.
Minds of colossal import have trodden this ground and I'm not more a pesky gnat in their shadow, but it is an excellent subject for consideration. One side stating that the same word drawing in to Christ is the same used when describing water drawn from a well. Does the water have a choice? Is Christ's spirit irresistible?
I think perhaps it is irresistible in a spiritual way that a fresh, hot meal prepared by a 5-star chef would be to someone fresh out of prison being fed only bread and water would be to the physical self. Could the prisoner still resist? Certainly, but the more important question would be why?
Indeed, if we are obedient and willing, we are ministers one to another - the very words coming from the Holy Spirit made audible in a meaningful and impactful way. Forsake not the fellowship of the brethren.
You pointed out some real problems when you mentioned the superficiality of many churches, and the immaturity of many Christians. I agree that “Most Christians fall into the spectrum of faith at the lower end – the colder, maybe near temperate zone where they find comfort.”
I also agree that a big part of the problem is “Failing to fully recognize our ongoing personal, individual depravity.” I would like to make a few comments about that – not to disagree with what you said, but to elaborate on it.
Everyone, no matter what their religious belief or non-belief, even atheists and secularists and opponents of religion, know that they have done things that are wrong, even bad. We have all said things we shouldn’t have said, done things we shouldn’t have done, and we all have a conscience that makes us feel guilty or remorseful for various things in our lives (someone who has no conscience at all can be called a sociopath or a psychopath, I believe).
So the problem with much Christianity is, that many people look to Christ for forgiveness for their sins on that level of merely human psychological guilt – “I am sorry I did this, I shouldn’t have done that” – while at the same time they feel deep down that they are basically good people after all. I had this attitude myself for years (and needless to say my Christian life was full of problems – resentments, fears, doubt, anxiety, disobedience and sin).
They have not been completely convicted of their utter condemnation before the holiness of God, and hence they still retain a lot of self will and self confidence. Thus they can never enter into the deeper things of faith, unless they are truly convicted in a manner that only the Holy Spirit can do. Short of that divine conviction, pride and self remain on the throne, above all the doctrines and religious words and activities.
“This is why Christ said, “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of God” – and to be poor in spirit does not mean feeling “I am stupid, I am a failure, no one likes me.” It means poverty of spirit relative to the infinite perfections of God, without which there can be no progress in the Christian life - and only the Spirit of Christ can give this.
Another problem is confusing “faith” with “assent to doctrine.” Some people believe that if they agree to the basic doctrines they are now home free. However, the Bible says “The just shall live by faith.” Faith is a gift of God, but once that gift has been received there must be a new creature, as you pointed out.
There is also a question about what “salvation” means. Some people think that salvation is something that kicks in on the day of judgment. You do your best in this life and then if you have believed in Christ he will intercede for you on the day of judgment, your sins will be forgiven, and God will accept you. But “salvation from sin” is to be in this life also, so we are set free from the power of sin in our hearts and minds, so that while we still err and are vexed by sin, sin does not rule over us.
As you rightly said of many Christians,
“They never exercise their faith and willingly fall into the trap of the world; falling in love with it to the exclusion of taking up their cross and denying their own lives. Are these folks saved? Only God knows the condition of their hearts, but from my own perspective, most aren’t saved – they may have spoken the words and stood in front of a church and continue to profess Christ, but there’s no real evidence that they have. As Jesus said, you will know a tree by its fruit. If their fruit isn’t spiritually alive and instead quite dead, then they’re only fooling themselves."
Amen, and amen. Strange as it may seem to you - I needed this really bad today. One of the more excruciating aspects of the Christian walk is acknowledging failure, accepting your responsibility for it - then going through the entire spectrum of feeling quite useless, to hopeless to broken. It is there that Christians meet their savior who not only forgives them, but picks them back up again even when we don't _want_ to because we're afraid of failing ...again.
And therein lies the power of the Holy Spirit - to minister directly to you through others, reminding you that it's not your strength, but through His.
Right, and one thing that has helped me in that area (from dealing with an unsaved family member) is this: I realized that I could be the best Christian in the world - wise, kind, good, loving, sincere upright and this would not make him believe. Or, I could be the worst Christian, a lying phony hypocrite, and God could still speak to him and open his heart, so he could recognize me as a fraud and still believe.
This does not mean we have no obligation. I feel a strong obligation to have some kind of witness - but his eternal destiny is not in my hands and not on my shoulders.
This gets into the concept of election an predestination. I am not sure what you think of it, Christians may disagree.
It's a good subject for discussion. I'll state this much -- what we understand as predestination does not convey puppeteering. Because God is outside of the sandbox of his creation, time to Him is meaningless. He has already witnessed our decisions, already worked any and all problems, catastrophes and blunders for our good. It's a hard concept to grasp sometimes, but our free agency is a part of God's total sovereignty.
Starting with your first response, which I may have answered too quickly, it does not seem strange that a comment should happen to come at the right time. This has happened to me before, something has come to me by way of rebuke or correction or encouragement when I needed it. As you said, God can minister to us through others, and through circumstances as well.
When it comes to feelings of failure and uselessness, Moses and Joshua and David had their troubled moments. This passage from Lamentations describes that but ends on a note of victory:
"[God] hath filled me with bitterness, he hath made me drunken with wormwood.
"He hath also broken my teeth with gravel stones, he hath covered me with ashes.
"And thou hast removed my soul far off from peace: I forgat prosperity.
"And I said, My strength and my hope is perished from the LORD:
"Remembering mine affliction and my misery, the wormwood and the gall.
"My soul hath them still in remembrance, and is humbled in me.
"This I recall to my mind, therefore have I hope.
"It is of the LORD'S mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.
"They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness.
"The LORD is my portion, saith my soul; therefore will I hope in him.
"The LORD is good unto them that wait for him, to the soul that seeketh him."
And God apportions those things as we need them, encouragement or correction, refreshment and rebuke, as you know without my telling you.
About predestination, Christ said “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him.” There must be I believe a divine initiative, and there are other Scriptures which attest to this.
However, as you said, in some way our feelings and wills are involved. God does not deal with us as stones or blocks of wood, or as if we were puppets, as you said. He deals with us as people and calls to our heart and minds and wills and awakens us on our deepest levels.
Someone who does not believe in God at all will find it absurd or ridiculous to believe that the supreme power of the universe could take any personal, individual interest in us, his little creatures, yet God knows all of our trials and cares, impossible though that may seem to the world.
Thank you for your thoughtful replies, Joe. Indeed, without divine intervention, we'd be hopelessly condemned. It comes to mind that the nature of that divine intervention is akin to a wandering soul, who having stumbled an unspecified time in a cold and hostile wilderness, has to them revealed a light on a hill. A light that flickers brightly in the howling dark chill of their long night. Yet while seeing it, perceiving it and making observation, they can choose even then to embrace the night or to be drawn to the light.
Minds of colossal import have trodden this ground and I'm not more a pesky gnat in their shadow, but it is an excellent subject for consideration. One side stating that the same word drawing in to Christ is the same used when describing water drawn from a well. Does the water have a choice? Is Christ's spirit irresistible?
I think perhaps it is irresistible in a spiritual way that a fresh, hot meal prepared by a 5-star chef would be to someone fresh out of prison being fed only bread and water would be to the physical self. Could the prisoner still resist? Certainly, but the more important question would be why?
Indeed, if we are obedient and willing, we are ministers one to another - the very words coming from the Holy Spirit made audible in a meaningful and impactful way. Forsake not the fellowship of the brethren.
Amen, brother.